Christianity and Homosexuality

JamesWilliams wrote:................ if I felt it was justifying being gay as just another way to live.

We are polar opposites on this subject which is why I find this comment so disturbing, but because I believe everyone is entitled to their own opinion I'm letting it go.


My problem with pulling the product off the shelf is that they aren't letting the consumer decide on their own what is best for them.

We are polar opposites on this subject which is why I find this comment so disturbing, but because I believe everyone is entitled to their own opinion I'm letting it go.

Pete - The fact that you've brought it up means that you haven't let it go, nor should you if you have something to say. Speak your mind, brother. The free exchance of ideas is what this forum is all about. This is a subject that definitely deserves discussion.

My problem with pulling the product off the shelf is that they aren't letting the consumer decide on their own what is best for them.

I agree as long as the 'consumers' aren't children. The problem I see though, is that this is a subject that most kids (whatever age you want to define 'kid' as) aren't necessarily ready or emotionally equipped to deal with. They're busy enough struggling with and trying to understand their own sexuality without throwing another ingredient into the mix. This is a tough and devisive topic, but lets not sweep it under the rug. Respectful discussion is called for - so let's discuss.

Bob is right that if I had let it go I wouldn't have brought it up, and I guess I was leery about bringing up the subject based on past "discussions" on the forum that have caused bad feelings towards one another, but I guess we'll test the waters and see.

I'll start by saying that a parents right to protect their children from whatever, is their right. It's their right as parents to raise their kids the way they see fit. I don't argue that point.

My problem comes with what happens when the children grow older and are face to face with those things their parents protected them from. As Christians are we really being christian if we raise our children to judge another person based on their sexuality? What if the child is gay? It creates a situation where they demonize themselves because of their up bringing.

It happens, it's been a part of life since the beginning. People don't want to admit it, but it's true. As Christians I believe we're called to love one another and not judge one another. You may not agree with their lifestyle, but it's their life, who are they hurting? They are out trying to find happiness just like everyone else.

It is only human nature to fear what we do not understand, and until you've walked a mile in their shoes, how can you say it's a choice? How can you say it can be fixed?

Not all these things have been said on this forum so please don't feel like I'm directing all of these comments to one person or a group of people. There are people on this forum that don't really know how they feel about the subject and are afraid to get too involved. Maybe this discussion can open the lines of communication and we can all learn something from one another, and let's face it, we haven't had a really "hot" thread in awhile.

I say these things because as a gay christian (yes, there it is, on the table finally) I know all too well the feelings of being cast aside, of being demonized and feeling like I'm not worthy of God's love. It has been a very long process of self discovery and self acceptance because of how I was raised, and the things I heard in church. I sat there for years knowing they were telling me that God loves everyone, but if you're gay, then you must not love God, that I was following the path of the devil. How can someone who isn't gay fully understand that this is not a choice, how this who I am, and God created me. By spending my life denying who I am, how can I glorify God, who am I to tell God he must not know what he's doing?

Over the last several years I've taken these things to God and he's shown me that I am loved just the same as the rest of his children. He has shown me that there is room in his church for me and the other millions of gay christians out there. That we are not abominations, we are not working with the devil, and that we too are children of God.

I've come to terms that not everyone will agree, I've come to terms with the fact that some people will never accept me, they will judge me and they will condemn me. But I also came to terms with true Christianity, the one that says "Come as you are, you are all welcome."

I know now that when I see groups of "Christians" preaching and screaming hate at protests that they do not represent true Christianity, and that has taken me a long time to realize. I put my faith in the hands of people who have no idea, people who do not speak for God as no one can speak for God.

For those who speak about what a great sin being gay is, I remind them that a sin is a sin. There is no sin greater than another and I don't see being gay as a sin. I may be wrong, and if I am, I will be held responsible for it when it comes time to be judged by the Creator. If he tells me I was living a sinful life, I can only hope that living a life of love and joy and treating my fellow man with love and kindness will not be in vane.

I have to be honest that when Bethany asked me to join this forum I was very nervous, at that time I was shying away from most things Christian. Before I joined I searched the archives to see if this had been a conversation before and to get a feel for the vibe, and didn't find much.

I guess looking back, I've always known JW's feelings on the subject and at times was trying to provoke this conversation to break it wide open and see where everyone stood, but I was so afraid for so long that I would be cast out and lose a group of people I love so dearly. I'm specific at using JW as a way to do this because I've been to his website and I figured how he felt on the subject. I'm sorry for using that as a way to bring all this up, it's not fair for me to direct things at him/you. I don't mean to direct this at one person, not everything in this post is directed towards JW because he's shown nothing but kindness and respect and I've come to really admire him.

Now in my mind, I wonder.......now that this out there, now that I have laid it out on the table.........where do I go from here? Several people on this forum already know, but it's still scary and it's so frustrating that I feel this way.

Pete wrote:

I say these things because as a gay christian (yes, there it is, on the table finally)

Pete! what about all our plans?! I thought we were going to run away and have lots and lots of babies?!!

Oh wait... that was Michael Buble'... not you.

You know I love you... and I'm glad that you can feel safe here with us.

Katykc wrote:

Pete wrote:

I say these things because as a gay christian (yes, there it is, on the table finally)

Pete! what about all our plans?! I thought we were going to run away and have lots and lots of babies?!!

Oh wait... that was Michael Buble'... not you.

You know I love you... and I'm glad that you can feel safe here with us.

I'm very proud of you, Pete. For what it's worth, I've known that you were gay for a long time. It's just been an accumulation of things said and things not said here and there. I'm glad you decided to pursue this and not let it go.

One of the things that really bothers me about the 'church' is that so many people are selective in the 'sins' that they are vehemently opposed to. They make that decision for themselves as if they have ANY authority to do so - as though they are God.

The church is full of sinners of all kinds.

The 7 Deadly Sins are.... (unknown source)

Pride is excessive belief in one's own abilities, that interferes with the individual's recognition of the grace of God. It has been called the sin from which all others arise. Pride is also known as Vanity.

Envy is the desire for others' traits, status, abilities, or situation.

Gluttony is an inordinate desire to consume more than that which one requires.

Lust is an inordinate craving for the pleasures of the body.

Anger is manifested in the individual who spurns love and opts instead for fury. It is also known as Wrath.

Greed is the desire for material wealth or gain, ignoring the realm of the spiritual. It is also called Avarice or Covetousness.

Sloth is the avoidance of physical or spiritual work.

Do any of these sound familiar to anyone? There are adulterers sitting in church every week. There are thieves sitting in church every week. There are those so filled with pride that they have become the master of their lives in their own eyes, sitting in church every week. I'll stop here. Our Houses of Worship are filled with sinners - period. me included. Thank GOD for Grace! It gives us the strength to carry on - to get up and say to God -"I messed up again. Thanks for giving me another chance."

Homosexuality is such a troublesome area. It's so hard to undrstand. Is it genetic? Is it a choice? I think perhaps it could be both, depending on circumstance, but I really don't know. If it's an inborn thing, how could it be sin? One cannot determine his own sexuality in the womb. It's all very confusing.

I do know this. The CREATOR created everything - according to the Word. And He loves his creation - every one. Even those among us that are seemingly unlovable are loved by God.

Homosexuality and abortion are probably the two most discussed subjects in all of Christiandom. I find that strange on many levels.

A pastor friend of mine said that when we die and get to Heaven, we'll be surprised at who's there - and who ISN'T.

I have so much to say on this subject - but I'll cut it short.

All I'll say in closing is this....

GOD KNOWS YOUR HEART!

God loves you, Pete - and so do I.

Thank you Bob. The feeling is mutual.......and platonic.

Not that there's anything wrong with that

Pete wrote:Thank you Bob. The feeling is mutual.......and platonic.

What? I'm not good enough for you?

Bethany wrote:Not that there's anything wrong with that

TB - please stay out of our relationship. This is complicated enough.

First, I want to say that because I'm at work, dealing with fallout from a major server outage, I won't be able to spend a lot of time on this. It doesn't mean I don't take this seriously.

I didn't mean to offend, nor do I intend to be defensive in this reply. But you did say a couple of things I am going to argue with, and I'm not talking about doctrine or whether or not homosexuality is sin.

Please read this:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

and know that I wrote that several years ago, and have been very confrontational with my fellow believers about how Christians treat gays.


OK, I'll give you a minute to read that.

Done?

Now, to your post:

Pete wrote:As Christians are we really being christian if we raise our children to judge another person based on their sexuality?

I'm not raising my kids to judge anyone based on that. I will, when they are old enough to understand that there is a such thing as same-sex relationships, express to them that I am convinced that God doesn't make someone that way, and if a person acts on those feelings by engaging in same-sex sex, they'll be in sin. It's my responsibility as a parent to raise my kids according to what I see that God has said. But also note that, as I said in the aforementioned article, I'm going to stress that any sex outside of marriage is equally sinful, and also will stress that being attracted to someone and not acting on it is not sin.

As Christians I believe we're called to love one another and not judge one another.

I hear this all the time, but I'm not sure it's biblical. We are definitely to mention to another Christian if we see them in sin:

Colossians 3:16 NIV "Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom and as you sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God."

Proverbs 24:24-25
"Whoever says to the guilty, 'you are innocent'—peoples will curse him and nations denounce him. But it will go well with those who convict the guilty."

and this one is very clear:
Ezekiel 3:18-19
"When I say to a wicked man, 'You will surely die,' and you do not warn him or speak out to dissuade him from his evil ways in order to save his life, that wicked man will die for his sin, and I will hold you accountable for his blood. But if you do warn the wicked man and he does not turn from his wickedness or from his evil ways, he will die for his sin; but you will have saved yourself.

I say these things because as a gay christian (yes, there it is, on the table finally) I know all too well the feelings of being cast aside, of being demonized and feeling like I'm not worthy of God's love.

See, that's the thing. I think there's a huge difference between saying that I think that certain behavior is sin, and saying you're not worthy of God's love. And if you think I think that, then you are very mistaken.

It has been a very long process of self discovery and self acceptance because of how I was raised, and the things I heard in church. I sat there for years knowing they were telling me that God loves everyone, but if you're gay, then you must not love God,

I don't doubt that some Christians have said that, but I have to say, I haven't heard it myself in a long long time. Most churches I know of whose leaders regard gay sex as sin are very clear that they love gays and want them to experience the same freedom that any other Christians have. And most are careful to emphasize, as I have, that a straight man addicted to porn, or any other sexual sin, is just as much in need of what Jesus offers as a gay person is.

Over the last several years I've taken these things to God and he's shown me that I am loved just the same as the rest of his children.

Of course He does. Shame on anyone who tells you different. I love my kids, too, but when they sin, I'm not going to let them continue in it. I would be unloving if I didn't.

I've come to terms that not everyone will agree

Great. I have, too. that's between you and God. I'm not going to tell you how to live your life. I'll still like you as a person, and hope you don't de-friend me from FB

I've come to terms with the fact that some people will never accept me, they will judge me and they will condemn me.

Will you believe me when I say that even though I disagree with you, I still accept you, and don't condemn you? This is important to me.

I guess looking back, I've always known JW's feelings on the subject and at times was trying to provoke this conversation to break it wide open and see where everyone stood, but I was so afraid for so long that I would be cast out and lose a group of people I love so dearly. I'm specific at using JW as a way to do this because I've been to his website and I figured how he felt on the subject. I'm sorry for using that as a way to bring all this up, it's not fair for me to direct things at him/you. I don't mean to direct this at one person, not everything in this post is directed towards JW because he's shown nothing but kindness and respect and I've come to really admire him.

Thanks. That means a lot.

Now in my mind, I wonder.......now that this out there, now that I have laid it out on the table.........where do I go from here? Several people on this forum already know, but it's still scary and it's so frustrating that I feel this way.

In the first place, there aren't that many people here anymore. Maybe 10. And I'll bet I'm the only one who didn't know. So as far as the forum goes, I hope nothing changes. I hope you realize that my disagreement with you doesn't change the fact that I think you're a cool guy, and I'd give you a hug if I met you in person, and above all, I don't equate gayness with Hell. You didn't say that, but I wanted to head it off at the pass. We are saved from hell based on one thing: whether we have accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior. Those that have done so, like me, have sinned a lot since that initial salvation experience took place, and it doesn't affect our eternal destination. Just wanted to clear that up.

Now I have to go figure out why SQL Server isn't backing up my databases.

Peace to you, Pete.

I just want to say that I feel all warm and fuzzy now.
It's either this thread or the vodka...or maybe both.

I also snorted inexplicably when I read JW's 2nd to last sentance and hummed, "One of these things is not like the other one of these things does not belong"

Bethany wrote:I just want to say that I feel all warm and fuzzy now.
It's either this thread or the vodka...or maybe both.

You're drinking vodka? That is a SINNN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(I'm obligated to say that)

I also snorted inexplicably when I read JW's 2nd to last sentance and hummed, "One of these things is not like the other one of these things does not belong"

Well, it makes sense when you read the very first sentence.

Now I have to go figure out why SQL Server isn't backing up my databases

Sounds like sexual inuendo to me.

I feel all warm and fuzzy now.

It was probably my skilled foreplay, TB.
That and the vodka.

JamesWilliams wrote:
Well, it makes sense when you read the very first sentence.

I was to drunk to remember the first sentance

TheGreat&TerribleBob wrote:

I feel all warm and fuzzy now.

It was probably my skilled foreplay, TB.
That and the vodka.

One other thing.
This thread so like soooooo gay

Bethany wrote:

JamesWilliams wrote:
Well, it makes sense when you read the very first sentence.

I was to drunk to remember the first sentance

TheGreat&TerribleBob wrote:

I feel all warm and fuzzy now.

It was probably my skilled foreplay, TB.
That and the vodka.

Vodka got to ya huh?

Bethany wrote:One other thing.
This thread so like soooooo gay

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

TheGreat&TerribleBob wrote:

Bethany wrote:

JamesWilliams wrote:
Well, it makes sense when you read the very first sentence.

I was to drunk to remember the first sentance

TheGreat&TerribleBob wrote:

I feel all warm and fuzzy now.

It was probably my skilled foreplay, TB.
That and the vodka.

Vodka got to ya huh?

no....it was a a result of your skilled foreplay

Bethany wrote:

TheGreat&TerribleBob wrote:

Bethany wrote:

JamesWilliams wrote:
Well, it makes sense when you read the very first sentence.

I was to drunk to remember the first sentance

TheGreat&TerribleBob wrote:

I feel all warm and fuzzy now.

It was probably my skilled foreplay, TB.
That and the vodka.

Vodka got to ya huh?

no....it was a a result of your skilled foreplay

I was afraid that was it.
Sorry, I got a little overzealous.

Pete, I am super proud of you!

I was thinking about all of this the other day, and I actually wrote some stuff about it.

Honestly, I don't understand what is wrong with being gay. Love is love, and I do believe that some people do not choose to be gay. And I know that doesn't sit well with Christians....but it is how I feel.

Pete, I love and care for you no matter what your life looks like, and no matter whether I agree with it or not. I assume all of you feel the same way about me, too. That's what makes a community.

We're all Christians here, and we all love you. Let that speak louder than the hate in this world.

JamesWilliams wrote:First, I want to say that because I'm at work, dealing with fallout from a major server outage, I won't be able to spend a lot of time on this. It doesn't mean I don't take this seriously.

I didn't mean to offend, nor do I intend to be defensive in this reply. But you did say a couple of things I am going to argue with, and I'm not talking about doctrine or whether or not homosexuality is sin.


Peace to you, Pete.

I cut out most of the message because it's just too long to repost, but I wanted you to know I did read it and am replying to it.

I'll be honest, there have only been one or two statements of yours in my time on this forum that offended me, and honestly I know now it wasn't the way you meant it, but the way I took it because of all the muddled up crap in my head at that time. To be honest I couldn't even pin point those anymore either, so I have moved way past them through this process.

There are a few points I would open up and talk more about but honestly, my mind is still in turmoil about what I myself believe, and those are in regards to the bible, how it's used and how people read and interpret it. There are so many points of view on the subject and I haven't even come close to understanding or verbalizing my own point of view, so it would be totally unfair to bring up those points when I have no idea how to say what is rattling in my head.

Overall this has really clarified in my mind your thoughts on the subject and helps me read your blog post in a different light, which is good. One of the hardest things I've had to train my mind to do is to respectfully disagree on points of this, but I've come along way and have learned it's not as hard as I made it to be before.

I wanted to thank you for taking the time during your busy day to write your reply, it all means a lot to me, and don't worry, I won't be defriending you on f.b. If anything I respect you even more.

Oh and by the way, out of the ten people here only 4 knew, not that I didn't want to tell everyone, but most found out right before our get together at Bethany's as a way to test the waters, so don't feel too left out.

In response to the rest of the posts, thank you for all your encouragement, you can't imagine how good it feels to finally have this conversation on here.

We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. ~Frank A. Clark